At a work meeting this morning, one of my colleagues mentioned jokingly that men lag years behind women in terms of maturity. The remark passed without comment from the roomful of women. Outwardly, I was my usual calm and collected self but inside my head, this innocent bit of conventional wisdom had set off a storm. So I did what I always do when something sets off a storm in my head. I decided to blog about it.
First, I have to create a point of reference. I couldn’t find any scientific literature arguing that women mature faster than men but I was able to pull something off the Web that I think gets to the gist of the women-are-more-mature-than-men argument:
My problem with this whole argument is that “maturity” is never defined in any way, let alone an acceptable one. The above quote doesn’t say what women do that makes them more mature at 17, besides “functioning as adults.” But again, we don’t know what adults do to demonstrate their maturity. I can only assume it’s ”adult” stuff like having relationships, owning a home, raising a family, etc. But we’ll come to that later.
What we do know is that boys, through the things they do, show themselves to be less mature. Trading baseball cards or giving each other wedgies, for example. I can only extrapolate that 17-year-old women are more mature because they are presumably less interested in hobbies or horseplay. More importantly, as the last sentence insinuates, women are also interested in relationships. Ergo, they are more mature. Without going to great lengths or providing evidence, I’ll go out on a limb and say that the maturity argument hinges implicitly on matters pertaining to relationships. The “maturity” of boys and girls is directly proportional to their interest in getting into a relationship.
First off, let’s try to find the point at which boys’ activities render them less mature than their girl peers?
Is a 10-year-old-boy who plays at cops and robbers less mature than a 10-year-old-girl who plays with dolls? Is a 15-year-old-boy who dreams of being a veterinarian, a pilot or teacher less mature than a girl his age who develops her first crush? Is a 19-year-old girl who’s in a relationship with a 23-year-old more mature than a 19-year-old boy who’s into X-Box? I say no, no, and no. Conventional wisdom might say no, yes, and yes. So when do the maturity levels of the sexes diverge? They diverge right around puberty, the age at which women can become pregnant and boys can produce sperm.
Girls become interested in boys while boys remain interested in toys. It is at this point, when interests diverge, that the maturity argument comes into play. You never hear the maturity argument prior to adolescence. Nobody says that a one-year-old girl is as mature as a five-year-old boy. You never hear that a 14-year-old boy has the same maturity level as an eight-year-old girl. But once puberty hits, you start hearing all about how girls are more mature than boys. The fact that girls enter puberty one to two years before boys only adds credibility to the argument.
However, there is never any talk about why some behaviors are more “mature” and others less. Instead, immature behavior almost always happens to be whatever boys are interested in doing. Interest in games and toys is deemed immature. Interest in hanging out with your friends is deemed immature. On the other hand, girls’ activities—developing crushes on boys, passing love notes to boys in class, and spending hours on the phone with friends talking about boys—are not deemed immature.
Why is this? Because activities that put women into the sexual and reproductive realm are rewarded, i.e., considered mature. In other words, “maturity” is conferred on girls when they become sexualized and capable of bearing offspring. Why else is the age of “womanhood” so close to the age of puberty? Why not confer womanhood after completion of an advanced degree or after the purchase of a home? And why is the most significant day in a woman’s life the day she gets married? Because all these activities are tied directly to women’s sexuality and reproductivity, and anything they do that sets them on the path to wifehood and motherhood is applauded as “mature” behavior. Boys, on the other hand, enter manhood only after they graduate college, join the army or buy their first home.
So closely tied to relationships is the gender-maturity argument that it’s impossible to discuss gender and maturity without ultimately ending up at relationships! To be more precise, men’s and women’s attitudes at different ages regarding relationships. A woman who wants to settle down with a husband and start a family is considered mature, even if she’s only in her early 20s. On the other hand, a man who prefers to put off marriage or even dating is considered immature. Which ties back to the logical conclusion of the women-are-more-mature-than-men argument, the notion that it is only natural for women to date older men. Consequently, nobody bats an eyelid if a 17-year-old girl has a boyfriend who’s already in college or if a 23-year-old woman marries a 46-year-old divorced man.
Ultimately, “maturity” has nothing to do with anything. Our patriarchal society arbitrarily deems some behaviors mature and others immature. Activities—like wearing makeup and having boyfriends—which move girls out of childhood and into womanhood are considered mature. Boys only acquire maturity through “adult” activities like home-ownership or military service, which usually come later in life when many of their female peers have already gone for older men. Is it any surprise then that the patriarchy places more value on behaviors that result in higher-placed members gaining access to younger women’s bodies?
Check out this post I found in the course of my “research.” It’s anecdotal (and possibly fictional) but it’s devilishly clever and well worth the read!!!
I wholeheartedly agree with your assertion that ‘maturity’ is an arbitrary word. HOWEVER, there exists evidence that puberty may influence brain development. Research suggests that hormones are being found to play a huge role in brain development. As we all know, females begin and end puberty, on average, faster than males. Therefore, one could argue that a woman is more ‘mature’ than a man at a younger age, but your definition of maturity would have to be ‘thinks more like an adult’. For example, total brain size peaks at age 11.5 in females and 14.5 in males.
This is a rather dry article touching on puberty related influences on brain development:
http://intramural.nimh.nih.gov/chp/articles/giedd-2006-mce.pdf
Here’s an article on sex differences in the male and female brain. It touches on the hormonal effects of brain development(watch the wrap):
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=00018E9D-879D-1D06-8E49809EC588EEDF
most of this article is pertaining to cognitive functions but not maturity. More of this research is done to determine spatial, verbal, and any sort of reasoning determining an individual’s perfomance on standardized tests.
The controversy on brain size is connected to IQ, which, is causing quite the stir due to a Dr. Rushton.
and 14.5-11.5 is 3 years not 20.
As of today I still can’t understand why IQ lowering shows like Sex and the City nor spending an exorbant
amount on a pair of shoes initiates one into the realm of maturity.
I am 24 and I like video games and skateboarding.
But them I am also a chemist and an engineer…maybe nerdom overcomes XX.
David,
Thanks for your thoughts. Have been pondering the same question myself lately too.
It occurred to me also that ‘maturity’ was being defined too narrowly. I think women probably do mature ’socially’ earlier than men, but this has a lot to do with how the respective sexes choose to spend their time.
Men will often spend time when they are young on athletic pursuits, and often ‘mature’ in terms of sporting/practical skills well beyond the level most women ever will because that is what takes there interest and what they spend a lot of time doing when they are young. Women on the other time spend a lot of this time talking with friends about people/relationships/feelings while boys are out playing sport and so naturally men’s social skills lag women somewhat when younger.
But I believe this so-called maturity gap equalises pretty quickly once you get to early 20s. I find it somewhat ironic that women will takl about how immature men are yet in the next breath talk about a ‘male dominated society’ in which we apparently live. How have men achieved a dominant position in today’s society if they are so immature?
There are always risks with generalisations, but I can certainly think of many instances where women are talking about nothing much more than shoes, boys, handbags etc while supposedly immature men of similar age are talking about careers, politics, investments, sports, interests/hobbies etc. In fact, the very fact that they made this comment at work that you mentioned is actually quite immature, and you demonstrated maturity by reacting in the way you did.
To be completely honest, we live in an EXTREMELY misandrous society (the west). Misandry has become a form of humour in which men “are not allowed” to fight against, the ridiculous idea that women mature faster than men stems from this without a doubt. It would be “offensive” to even suggest that men mature faster than women. So how can we have a civilised debate about it if there is huge bias as a result of the past?
I fully agree with the above theory, and find it very interesting. I must admit though, I would personally consider a 17 year old female dating a 24 year old male to be, well, immature. She has no idea what he is capable of, and her (presumptuous) gullibility definately shows a striving to become mature, however sadly, and ironically, proves otherwise.
Lyall and Oisin,
Thank you both for reading my blog and for leaving thoughtful, insightful comments.
I definitely agree, and anything that I could possibly want to say has already been said by the above.
It’s all about living up to standards other’s set for you. I personally have no aspiration of ever getting married. In todays society, that makes me immature. Boys in their teen years are usually into, from my experience, music and video games. Again, that falls into judgment.
Many adults are elitist. If they do not understand something, they dismiss it as juvenile. Heavy Metal, for example. While it has some of the most thought-provoking lyrics in music, it is looked down upon due to the loud riffs, or, “noise”.
While music is the most subjective thing in the world, and it is completely understandable to not like a genre of music, to completely discredit it is downright… immature. I do not like rap the least bit. Do I put it down and tell all of it’s listeners to listen to better music? No, I’m more mature then that (or I like to think I am).
Same thing about cards and video games. Video games are a new form of media, and of course, it will be looked down upon. Grand Theft Auto will always over-shadow story-based games, such as Metal Gear Solid, as sad as it may be. Supposedly, talking mindlessly on the phone about how hot that boy is in one of your classes is more productive.
Sorry for the rant, and I now realize that none of it was relevant. Oh well, though. And in case you skipped to the end, I agree completely with your blog.
Alex,
What a great comment! Thanks for that. It really made my day. Nothing makes me happier than supportive comments on my posts.
Thanks for reading my blog, and I hope you come back and comment often.
i’m a 17 year old at uni and actually finish my 1st year before my 18th. We had this same debate for hours earlier today and it appears that as a guy you cannot argue your point on this subject without being called immature for arguing. its a lose-lose situation and yet, i had a girlfriend at 15 we were together for 3 months before i moved abroad with family. i was perfectly contented with the long term seperation however after 5 months it appears my girlfriend was not and she left me, to my view showing that i as a male am more capable of keeping a relationship than she was. (she has since had 5 more boyfriends in the last 18 months).
maturity?… you tell me.
Chris,
Thank you very much for reading my blog and for leaving a thoughtful and—dare I say it?—mature comment!
I agree with you absolutely that it’s a lose-lose argument if you’re a man. It’s difficult to argue against a centuries-old “conventional wisdom” which maintains that as long as women are actively conforming to their “traditional” roles as wives, lovers, and mothers, they are behaving in a “mature” way.
Hey! How’s it going? I was just writing about this topic. Here’s someone who says young girls ar emore mature:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_do_girls_mature_faster_than_boys
Hi John,
Thanks for reading my blog and leaving a comment. I agree that biologically speaking, there’s no denying that women enter sexual maturity earlier than men. My issue is with how different behaviors are perceived as mature or less mature, depending on who engages in them. Boys continue to play video games long after puberty, and this behavior is still considered immature. Why? Similarly, post-adolescent women will spend hours on the phone or over brunch discussing their romantic interests, yet this behavior is never considered immature. Why?
Thoughts? Comments?
Alex, you could be a great example of that old saying “you can’t judge a book by its cover”. Your interests don’t determine your maturity – it’s just how society stereotypes things. There is a great, heavy fog of societal ills we can all complain about, guys, but instead, why don’t we just find relief in the fact that we can see through them? Sometimes the stereotypes are true, and sometimes they aren’t. People would have to get to know you personally in order to figure out whether or not you’re mature. I also wholeheartedly agree with David’s post – of course, scientific observation is always good in my book.
And Chris, be aware that a 15 year old girl is still quite young. The girl is only getting her feet wet in dating, so how can she (realistically) consider a serious long term relationship, when she hasn’t even had the experience to know what kind of guy she prefers? Not only that, but people experience tremendous psychological and situational changes during the high school years (14-18), changes which are probably more significant than the “gender gap”. I am also sure that her revolving door of boyfriends is quite status quo; in any case, I agree it indicates she is not yet mature enough for a serious relationship. It is not fair, however, to use your sole experience to support a conclusion. Also considered is whether or not she suffers individual psychological issues related to fear of commitment or something – which, if true, will probably only become noticeable once she reaches the age where society expects her to have “grown up by now”. These comments only spur from anecdotal evidence and what I remember while habitually surfing on the net, but if there’s any official research on the psychology of high school students, I’d like to hear it.
I think what needs to be done is…lessen the focus on society, and distinguish between common lore and actual empirical evidence. And…answer the question, what is maturity?
In fact, I might return for further discussion (and bring some sources if possible). For now, I’ve got to sleep!
Kat,
Thanks for a great comment. I hope you do come back.
I look forward to reading more of your insights.
It’s very refreshing to see this.
I’ve been watching Judge Judy on YouTube because I have no TV where I’m located. I read the comments because I want to know what my fellow viewers think.
I read some terrible comments about the judge. One viewer goes as far to say that he would stick his you-know-what in her nether regions just to show her who’s boss.
I did not respond, because it’s YouTube.
I do start a discussion with a man I work with about sexuality amongst the sexes, the porn industry, the definition of feminism and so on.
Two nights ago I looked up the history of feminism and came across a blog about Men’s’ Rights Activists.
On this blog an older gentleman is speaking out against the corruption of the court systems in favor of women. He had some valid points, and observed the same things I have. However, one of his friends has on their blog things about how women enjoy being the victims, love to be raped and talk about it. I won’t say it was ridiculous, but it was pretty hurtful.
So I do some more digging, and see more some hateful things.
Last night I’m watching The People’s Court. It’s a short clip of the judge yelling at this law student for being rude by saying ‘that’s your opinion.’ He attends the same law school she taught at, so she blew up on him. Because the entire episode wasn’t shown, no one else saw how badly he was behaving.
In the comment section, one person said basically the same thing the other said about Judge Judy. A girl said she snatch his genitals off.
I know this is extremely long, but I feel that I have to get this off my chest.
I feel like this summer a hatred for men has started to fester. Despite my past, it’s never been there and I’m scare of it.
I met someone online who told me to read his blogs. In his most recent installment, he says that any woman who has a job that is traditionally filled by a man is either a dyke or a feminist.
You can’t know how much that blew me away. I told him that I want to be a chemist and I work in a lab this summer, and he asked me if I was gay.
I can see that women, in the quest to be equal, have pushed their counterparts away. We’ve alienated you guys. You really can’t have a civil discussion without being called a sexist. But it’s just like we can’t have a conversation about race without being called racists. I’m positive it’s because of our past.
I can’t begin to fathom why women were treated as lesser than men to begin with, but I see that those thoughts about us have created this situation today.
I’m not naïve. I know that laws won’t change what a person feels in their heart. Personally, I believe that people should be able to do what they want as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone.
But I’ll tell you this: I loved my PlayStation since the 8th grade. I was born a SNES freak. Final Fantasy is the best RPG ever. I didn’t start dating until I was 20. I had only a few girl friends. I never discussed shoes or boys with them. Most of the time it was books and politics.
Somehow, while not being a “typical” girl and doing things most guys would do, I was still considered very mature while growing up. I guess it’s just like beauty.
You’ve noticed that people say a girl is a woman when she gets her period. I find it strange that while no one says a woman stops being one when she goes through menopause – she’s treated like she isn’t.
Alex, I feel you. I don’t plan on getting married either. Marriage and a family are sold to us as if it’s the highest thing we can achieve. I don’t think it is. Notice how you never marrying may be immature, you’re called a bachelor. I’m called a spinster who’s failed at life.
As for the guy with the girlfriend who moved away: some people just aren’t into long distance relationship. Some people need a person there with them all the time. I’ve come across a guy like that and it annoyed me. I’m probably more like you who holds the love in their hearts as well as their head, while you’re ex probably needed it physically. Who knows? She could have been going through a lot of things or have had things done to her that makes her want attention from guys.
Anyway, this has been brewing for a few months and I had to get it out somewhere. I’m sorry it’s not very organized!
I have to say is that I really appreciate seeing this. Lately I’ve had to take deep breaths, remember my dad and my wonderful ex boyfriends and repeat that ‘they’re not all bad’.
I’ll remember you, Abdul, in this chant as well.
Queta,
Thanks for your comment. I hope it helped to get things off your chest.
I’m sorry to hear you’re developing a hatred of men this summer, and I wish I could tell you to be more patient, etc. But a lot of the bad things that are done to women in this world are done by men. There’s no denying that fact. There’s no denying the fact either that professional, educated, or successful women—in other words, women who refuse to conform to traditional gender roles—are viewed with suspicion by many men.
All I can say is that we’re not all like that.
In response to the post by Queta, you ask how woman were ever discrimanted against in the first place…the answer is really rather obvious, men are biologically superior. As in men are stronger, if you look back to society of the past – right back to cave men – society was always based on the need for strength to survive.
And this is still evident today. While most western nations are largely ‘Tertiary’ based economies, that is to say services based – the marjority of the worlds population are all situated Primary and Secondary sector economies. And it is in these countries that physical strength will be valued above most else.
And really, it is when an economy becomes an advanced industrial economy that education is valued over strength. And then equal opportunity can be made possible. This is rather generalised ofcourse, but if you look to a developing country like china, there is a massive secondary sector of the economy, and ofcourse – when producing goods, the ability to make goods faster and longer will be a trait that is looked positively upon.
If you however look to a western nation, the ability to say – be a teller at a bank or work as an architect, is really based on intelligence which is can thus provide equal opportunities for both men and woman.
When you also spoke of ‘Mens Rights Activists’, i can see where they are coming from. In the quest for equal treatment, great lengths of affirmitive action have been taken, and this then creates a situation of positive discrimination, where woman are discriminated in a good way. An obvious example might be university sporting scholarships, or golf club memberships – where such places are recquired to offer equal numbers of scholarships/memberships to both mem and woman, even though men may excel at the sport more thoroughly. This is entirely fair, as if such a system werent in place – these institutions would surely just discriminate and offer positions only to males because they offer a higher level of competition or whatever. (however with a golf club, they may actually offer memberships to woman for a lower price, but that has to do with the fact that woman will generally use the facilities less and therefore the club benefits from such memberships) anyway, this is getting a bit of track.
But yes, with this quest for equal opportunity and with all these institutions taking affirmative action for woman, that surely means men are be discrimanted against – and so it arguable whether this is really ‘fair’. Instead, such places might instead put in place real equal opportunity, rather then pro-discrimination.
Keeping with this, the train of thought that brought about affirmative action – also creates this sense men are automatically discriminating against woman, thus when you undertake a debate like this – you are automatically sexist sort of thing, and it really is a lose-lose situation. So what i see, is that for society to really become equitable, there needs to be this removal of gender divisions – and ultimately, i see feminists as being somewhat detrimental to their cause because they are just promoting this division between the genders. It is true that suffragete movements were beneficial, but nowadays – with the laws already fully promoting anti-discrimination, the more people argue for pro-discrimination of one sex, the more this gender division will grow and society will be unable to overcome the current situation of gender bias.
If that makes sense and you can follow that, then good on you!
cheers
Steve,
Thanks for your comment.
I have only one point of contention:
Without feminists, women would not have any of the opportunities they have today. Feminism is what brought about all the benefits and, although there’s still a long way to go, we can’t say Feminism has outlived its usefulness. And we definitely shouldn’t say Feminists are detrimental to the cause of women’s empowerment.
Gender relations, like all human relations, are power relations. All Feminism seeks to do is interrogate and equalize the power imbalances that have traditionally typified gender relations.
Steve there is only one thing I disagree with in your statement:
“the answer is really rather obvious, men are biologically superior. As in men are stronger,”
This is true in most cases, though I would think it would depend, throughout the the man’s lifespan, how he treats his body.
If a woman does stuff to add muscle, ect… to her body, maybe she was a professional body-builder, naturally a man who knows nothing in that criteria probably would not be as strong as her.
I loved reading your blog, Abdul Kargbo!
Mari,
Thanks for reading my blog and leaving a well thought-out—not to mention supportive—comment. I agree with you wholeheartedly.
I think when these studies on men vs women maturity are put out, they’re speaking generally. And when they say “generally, women are thought to be more mature then men” I think that is exactly what they mean. And I don’t think it has anything to do with relationships. I don’t personally see, either, how talking on the phone for hours on end about guys, etc. is mature, because not every teenage girl is like that. And I agree with how maturity is more determined by how that person grew up, and their own experiences, rather than gender. I’m a 13 year old girl, and I’d like to think I’m more mature than most people my age, not because of my gender. I believe that is because I’m the youngest of four siblings, and include my step-siblings, the youngest of ten. I’ve had to grow up quicker, just to keep up with political or religious conversations with my family. I know I’m still young, but I think I’ve developed my own definition of maturity.
Maturity is when you have your own opinions, but you don’t lash out in hatred because somebody else’s opinions are different (we’ve all done that before, I have). Maturity is when you hold respect for the people around you, and you’re tolerant of their views. Maturity is also taking personal responsibility for your wrong doings, and accepting those consequences. I lack the latter, simply because I hate getting in trouble, and yes, I believe that at that moment of denying I did something “wrong”, I was being immature.
To me, it has absolutely nothing to do with relationships in that stereotypical way that girls, or guys, my age are viewed as. We can all be immature, and we can all be mature, at times.
And that is to also say that just because I like having a good appearance doesn’t make me an immature person for caring for things like that. And just because I’m more intelligent than most people my age (in the AP classes at school) doesn’t make me mature. And believe me, I can not care about looks at times. I’m also one of the slowest people you’ll meet on certain days. That’s just how I am. Everybody’s different.
And about defying stereotypes, I love video games. (Halo anyone?) Having fun by playing games isn’t immature. Why should enjoying yourself be considered immature, anyways? That’s just lame.
Anyways, thanks for the blog
I’m glad I came upon it on of my many random Google searches.
Abbey,
Wow!!! You may well be the most intelligent and articulate—and dare I say mature—thirteen-year-old I’ve ever come across.
Thank you very much for your intelligent and well thought-out comment.
I am very happy to have your input in this conversation.
Your observations about maturity and what it means to be mature or immature are, in my opinion, spot on.
As a 14 year old guy, I’ve had to put up with the maturity arguement for a long time. And I completely agree with Abdul on the definition of maturity.
Recalling Emily Dickinson’s poem, Much Madness is Divinest Sense, society has been structured to interpret things that, when viewed farther away, seem ridiculous. Just how girls biologically develop earlier, as Nature intended so as to have the most oppurtunities to make offspring and et cetera, relates to how mentally and emotionally developed, I cannot fathom. In my research and experience, everybody has peaks in their development. Just as there are early bloomers and late bloomers in one aspect and another, girls are generally early bloomers in some aspects considered mature, such as social interactions. That’s how Nature intended it. By viewing evolution, we see how girls who are mothers at an earlier age are usually the fittest, therefore traits such as mental maturity are usually kept in the gene pool. These traits that makes a mother a good mother include finding as many partners as possible and basically producing as much as possible.
While as complex humans we are not as direct as this, certain synonymous aspects can be seen. Girls who begin dating at a young age and finding “experienced” partners, i.e. older guys, are viewed upon as mature. Girls who begin caring about their social life are viewed as mature. In essence, girls who become capable mothers are viewed as mature. But does this define maturity?
Just when has a female definition of maturity apply to males? Just as expectations of females differ from those of males, the standards for maturity deviate as well. Males in the animal world are made to be strong. Take an alpha male as an example. Alpha males are practical. They are strong and straightforward. If a male in a group fails to keep up, the alpha male deserts him for the betterment of the group. As Nature intended, males develop faster than females in different departments. Males are more practical. Just as research shows that while baby girls can differentiate facial expressions, baby boys can generally make a bridge out of blocks faster than girls. We develop in different areas, and thus what appears to be mature for guys may or may not seem mature for females.
Maturity differs among males and females. But what has caused society to believe that females dictate what is mature and what is not? Take for example 2 guys who were dumped by their girlfriends. One cries and one moves on. Girls percieve the crying guy to be more into the relationship and thus believe him to be more mature than the other, who knows nothing can be done and moves on. In a guy’s perspective, the one who moves on is more mature. But in a girl’s perspective, the guy who cries is more mature. As a whole, the crying one is more mature. Why? What has made society side with the females’ perspective? Naturally, we would think the crying guy is more mature based on his dedication. As a guy, I would differ, but as a whole, that’s a different story.
Bear with me this long text that may or may not make any sense. But basically, girls and guys mature in different aspects, just as how guys who play video games are viewed as mature by other guys but immature by girls. But years pass and older guys think video games are immature, at least in some cases like in my school. What made them change their mind? In my opinion, biology has. As females have the ability to reproduce, they are, in some areas, dominant over males. In many full-blown relationships, not casual ones that last a few months, it’s the guy after the girl. And thus what the girl deems as mature must be what the guy also views as mature. That’s just how nature works.
In short, maturity differs among genders. It’s all about perspective. People may view intelligence or social adeptness as mature. It’s all different, and it all boils down to whether your partner finds you mature or not. A common ground in maturity is what binds a relationship together.
That was long. I’ve got to thank my psychology class and AP Biology class, heh.
Derek,
Your psychology and biology teachers would be very proud of you if they read this post.
Thank your very much for your comment and insight. I hope you continue to contribute your thoughts to my blog.
And, for the record, I agree with you 100%!